ATC2

Sorry - my previous posts may have been a little haphazard. I didn't mean to say that there is currently soft demand.

Basically, it's just a timing issue. Construction costs are currently high, which of course is fine if rents are also sufficiently high, which they are right now. I am speculating that developers like CBC expect a downturn and don't want to be in a situation where they pay these high construction costs, then the project takes 2-3 years to finish, and by 2021/2022, we are in a pullback/downturn/recession and they can't get the rents that they originally expected.

An inquiry into the Southbank building has revealed no new leases after 12/31/19. So we may want to start a new thread on that to see if Austin Lawrence starts the process to tear it down.

Also, any whispers on ATC2?  

Fantastic. I knew that all leases they were signing were short term, but I am looking forward to this redevelopment. It could be a really iconic building for Durham given the location.

Long time lurker, first time poster.

Agreed on SBB having potential to be iconic for Durham and the positive impact it could have for ATC2 - I'm so looking forward to this development, but I'll admit with slight concern.

I keep looking at the renderings and the current plans seem to call for something between 10-12 stories on the site, which I find lackluster at best. Durham is never going to create intelligent density building out 8-12 story buildings and separate 4-6 story parking garages. We need a more modern density plan, where you build down for parking and up for office/residential. Anything less than 18 stories on that huge plot is disappointing, especially considering that with the surface area available they could easily go down 6 levels for parking.

I'm hoping to be pleasantly surprised when final plans are released, but at this point I'm prepared for disappointment. I hope that whatever the final is doesn't cause revision or further hold on ATC2, which I'm worried that IF they were planning for 25+ stories, it might.

At this point it’s been so long that I’m not sure the rendering from the Austin Lawrence website has any bearing on what the South Bank project will end up being.

I certainly hope not. Major yikes.

Plans are out — finally!! Lots to unpack here and a lot still in flux but the renderings look fantastic and really complete a district type feel in that section of downtown.

https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2020/07/28/massive-expansion-at-american-tobacco-in-durham.html?ana=e_me_set1&j=90521132&t=Morning&mkt_tok=eyJpIjoiWlRabVpUbGxNelZrTVdZeSIsInQiOiJNUENXNHM5Y3lLWGV1NFJmc3d5RStVU2wrTHRHbUh1eks2aDQ5ak5sRzVOUVdtUEQwNnZKM2F1NEMxaDRNTU1YaDlpY3VvOFN6NHRPVWZvQjByT2UwVlpBeVBCVjZPanlGMER0anFhMlJEQ0lCZHlkbGFDOXBqOHlrdEl1N3RaWlpaV08rcTE0UHYybkRyekIzTmUxQUE9PSJ9

Fantastic - it feels like despite 2020 being so odd, Durham is planning for some large leaps!

I will do some further digging on this and create a post for it if I find additional info, documents, perspectives, etc!

Can't describe how elated I am that grocery was explicitly mentioned by Goodmon as part of the plan. Durham has long had a major lack of grocery options once you head eastward from Ninth Street. I am hopeful that this will be major piece of the project.

Also worth noting that USAA and Hines are working together on Fenton, which has a Wegmans anchor. I'm trying not to get my hopes up for a Wegmans. As much as I would like one, this doesn't really fit their typical footprint. But I'm optimistic that they'll get this right and it will be a grocery store people can actually do most of their shopping, instead of a glorified convenience store.

Wish this article were more complete. They presented the renderings without discussion of any phasing for the project. It seems pretty likely this will not all be built at once.



I'm guessing the 14 story tower the article mentions is the left-most building in this rendering, also shown in this other one:



So I'm assuming if phase one includes three buildings and a parking deck, that means the two buildings to the lower right of the aerial view are in a future phase. This implies phase two could include a 20-30 story tower (shown in rendering but not mentioned in the article).

A few other thoughts:

- Timber! Nice.
- Theater will be great, but I hope it doesn't kill the Carolina.
- Grocery store a huge plus.
- I hope the way they're phasing this gives some sense of enclosure to the campus. I think the building in the middle of the bottom row in the aerial view will be very important to creating the feel of an urban campus; otherwise, the courtyard won't feel like a courtyard -- it'll be wide open to the street until the last two buildings are constructed.
- I hope they don't place ALL of the retail on the interior. One of the worst aspects of ATC is how it turns its back to the street to create a completely internalized experience. This is a chance to mitigate that a little and contribute to the streetscape of Willard St.

Yes - it sounds like CBC released only what they wanted to release. They have not yet submitted a Development Plan to the city, so they are controlling the narrative, which is probably smart. As soon as the DPlan is released, I will dig through it to see what else I can find and will write about it.

I like your additional thoughts. I have a few of my own:

- Agreed - it will be really nice to do mass timber and get recognition in design and construction circles, nationally.

- I would bet against them being able to pull off a theater. I may be very wrong, but that is an industry that I think will suffer from COVID (accelerating its struggles from Netflix, huge flatscreen TVs, etc).

- As both elevatoroperator and mjp mentioned, grocery store would be huge. Quite honestly, I don't think this will be the end of the need for a downtown grocery, though. By the time this is up and running in (optimistically) 2023, downtown may have increased in density enough to start thinking about a second grocery need north of RR tracks (bulldoze that McDonald's on the loop and stick one there!)

- I COMPLETELY agree that retail needs to be facing outwards. I have heard that they are interested in a more connected urban approach with ATC2, so I am optimistic this will be the case. Of course, there may be other factors that influence their decisions, so we will have to wait and see.


Excited to see if they can pull this off. There seems to be a lot of momentum in Durham.

This looks pretty cool! Between this and the stuff on the other side of the DBAP, this area is going to be so different.

Any updates on this since July?

No real updates to speak of Steve. Not sure we will see too much in the first half of this year as they previously indicated a late 2021/early 2022 start to construction.

Site plan has been submitted (I haven't been able to see it yet) for Phase 1. My understanding is that they are targeting shovels in the ground by the end of the year.

Google considering ATC2, which makes total sense.

https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2021/07/12/google-eyeing-american-tobacco-campus-expansion.html

Where_Google_(Nasdaq_GOOG)_could_call_home_in_downtown_Durham_-_Triangle_Business_Journal.pdf

Appreciate the PDF of the TBJ article.  By the sounds of it, Google could easily become an anchor tenet in a sizeable office building. Hopefully leading to have rights to naming along the top and in view of 147.

Funny enough, Google has their name on the building they lease on Franklin Street.  Which if I remember correctly, is a fairly small team.

Makes a lot of sense for Google on a number of levels. For anyone interested, Hines is doing a public update on the next phase on July 29th at 10AM.

https://us02web.zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_wmm5ZAAWSgWwogxKxTF6mA?fbclid=IwAR20qQEi7W986Pgu5Y7dYQvy-aXcNAp5xDCK4nmaK8zS2oxSIml6mpDQBAQ

https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/603-Willard-St-Durham-NC/23674743/

Looks like some of the leasing is up on Loopnet. Nice to see some of the initial floor plans and layouts.

Thanks for posting, they are certainly pushing right along. As elevatoroperator alluded to previously, I’m really curious how this will look when only the first phase is complete as you’ll presumably have a large barren portion at the south end of the site. Wondering whether they will try to plant some temporary landscaping to at least give the space a finished look in the interim. I guess it will depend to some extent on the timeline for the second phase but it seems like that will be some time out.

Just came here to post this!

See an enlargeable plan here.

Glad they're for sure pursuing a grocer. It's 25,000 sf, which means larger than a Trader Joe's (8-15k). Bummer

Wonder what could go there? The new urban-format Publix in Raleigh is 45k, which is more in-line with  most of the typical grocery retailers' sizes.